"...that is the question,
and don't forget there's no easy answer, cause I'm looking at you through the glass, don't know how much time has passed, although it feels like forever..." an excerpt from a Stone Sour song that just seems fitting for the topic and question
==================================================================
When I first started selling comic books in any quantity back in the early '90's, grading was relaxed compared to today's grading standards.

I realized this recently when I sold a collection for a friend of mine on eBay. Out of 117 books only 9 were returned, but the collectors who returned them were obviously much more serious about the material they would include in thier collection than the other 30 or so buyers who were happy with thier comics.

The books were pre-graded by the owner before I got them using an 11 year-old "Comics Value Guide" from 1995, which included a grading scale of the era in a chapter called "Making the Grade". (More on that later.)

For certain reasons listed below I feel this is a very important point to all interested in the comic book industry in general.

It seems as though the grades assumed by the owner, from the information he obtained from this older guide, was more than suitable for most of the buyers because of the feedback they left, which was simply the comments of happy collectors who felt they got what they paid for, if not more.

The 3 who returned books stated that the books were "grossly over-graded" in some instances by "2 or 3 full grade-points".

That's a very large descrepency looking at this scenario in these very basic terms.

But, if you look at it in a geographical sense, it makes much more sence.

The 3 who returned the 9 books were for the most part all from large metropolitan areas.

The 30 or so who were happy lived in more rural areas of the States, or overseas, as far away as Australia, France, Canada, and England, not to mention our great State of Hawaii.

Imagine the sheer distances from any one of these countries to the East Coast of the United States, and then imagine how far away, and rare anything is for them from here? Especially something as "dispensible" as a vintage comic book?

Remember: Something "common" in the States, probably is very rare, and hard-to-find, elsewhere!

One of the satisfied bidders, who was contacted by one of the buyers who returned books, said the comics were "a little over-rated" but was "keeping them" simply because he was "happy with them". (He bought 29 books - over 25% of the entire collection - and spent several hundred dollars on them, and was from Canada.) Not one of them who returned thier books were ever rude, and all were easy to deal with. These are the collectors you show your best stuff to obviously, and ironically the people who "turned me back on" to the industry. At least as far as the most recent grading standards are concerned.

The other 30 or so were just plain happy to get thier hands on the books themselves and came from not only the U.S., and Hawaii, but Canada, Australia, England, and France - Which again, is the moral to this post: Grading is subjective, and depends SOLELY on the prefrences of the individual, a lot of which could have to do where they live, and the availability of what they seek. Plain and simple.

This is where I feel a mistake is being made in "grading" comic books.

As the old cliche' goes ... beauty is only in the eye of the beholder ...

I propose that instead of grading a comic book, why not simply describe any defects that are visable upon inspection of the book, and let the collector determine the grade (at least in the case of non-CGC graded comics) or,



The quick lesson I learned from eBay is that there are people all around the globe that want American comic books, and because of thier geographical position on earth, are willing to pay more than the average domestic collector for the same issue, in the same grade, and as far as we know, this same philosophy may apply to overseas dealers as well (and what are THEY getting for that same issue of..?).

The East Coast of the United States holds most of the planet's high-priced collectibles simply because they were produced here. And that's a fact.

Like any commodity: supply equals demand, and demand must equal supply. When demand surpasses supply, well...

This is why many collectors throughout the United States are willing to pay higher prices for vintage comic books: They know there is more competition on a global basis.

It all boils down to one question: Is the buyer purchasing a comic book for investment purposes, or are they buying it simply because they enjoy it?

i.e. Say CCL divided listings into sections (or "searches") according to a customer's budgit (wether trading, buying, or selling):

1. Poor to Good.

2. Very Good to Fine.

3. Very Fine to Mint.

If something like this were stressed globally it could do the industry some good. At least in my humble opinion, because it could drive prices abroad up, while keeping them down domestically, simply because of the cost of postage.

If you think about it, we're now in a global competition for anything and everything collectible from automobiles to zippos.

You bring up some very good points regarding regional differences in demand for particular grade (or the very perception of grade). Reminds me of something that Chuck Rozanski (one of, if not the, largest dealers in the world) wrote a couple years back on low grade silver age comics. No matter what your opinion on him and his business practices, he always has good points in regard to things such as grading, worldwide supply, trends, etc.

In regards to the idea of grading the collector's as opposed to the books. To me that sounds exactly like the reputation score that is employed by eBay and similar sites. Granted, the score encompasses much more than a seller's ability to accurately describe condition (in eBay's case I believe the score tends to be impacted most by whether one actually pays for or actually ships the item, which would be the most basic aspects of a transaction). It will be interesting to see how CCL develops in this direction.

Anyway, you obviously put a lot of thought into your post, and I thought it a shame no one had replied yet, so I dumped some mental diarrhea out.

Thanks for the "mental diarrhea". Maybe we all need "cleaned out" in the long "run" (excuse the "pun").

In my humble opinion, ebay is a comic sales forum only. eBay is to me simply a "pulse" of the industry giving up valuable data on the comics industry in a global capacity, in general.

The data durived from ebay is some of the most important data to any collector, wether in the States or abroad, because it is the data that drives the economy of the comic industry, or at least influences it in some manner, or in some certain direction.

Selling forums like ebay allow comic book collectors to see just where the industry is standing as an industry, simply since so many books are sold in an ebay setting. The final prices are simply what collectors are willing to pay for an issue - regardless of the shipping charges - which I feel is a very important point.

MINT ( M or MT : 125% ~ 150% ; Overstreet 100-98 )

Near perfect in every way. Only the most subtle bindery or printing
defects are allowed. Cover is flat with no surface wear. Cover inks
are bright with high reflectivity and minimal fading. Corners are cut
square and sharp. Staples are generally centered and clean with no
rust. Cover is generally centered and firmly secured to interior pages.
Paper is supple and fresh. Spine is tight and flat. Yes, comics in
this grade do exist, but they are extremely rare for one simple reason
- this is the most subjective of all the grades. What qualifies as
Mint to one person may have a small, almost unnoticeable flaw that
downgrades it to Near Mint for someone else. Your typical comic in
the pull file or on the newsstand is _not_ in mint condition, but is
instead in near mint condition because of these extremely minor flaws.



NEAR MINT ( NM :100% , NM- : 90%; Overstreet 97-90 )

Nearly perfect. Cover is flat with no surface wear. Cover inks are
bright with high reflectivity and with a minimum of fading. Corners
are cut square and sharp with ever so slight blunting permitted.
Staples are generally centered and clean with no rust. Cover is well
centered and firmly secured to interior pages. Paper is supple and
like new. Spine is tight and flat.

Tears : None allowed.
Corner Bends : Only allowed if hardly noticeable.
Spine Stress Marks : Only allowed if hardly noticeable.
Staples : Tight, clean, no rust, and centered.
Writing : None allowed with the exception of autographs.
Rubber Stamps : None allowed.
Tape : None allowed.
Pieces Missing : None allowed with the exception of tips of pages
nicked during the production process.
Fingerprints : When noticeable they drop the comic down to Fine.
Water stains : None allowed.
Browning Paper : None allowed except in the instance of older
comics (such as a 12 cent comic) that may have
oxidized due to their extreme age. Even then,
it must be hardly noticeable.
Spine Rolling : None allowed.
Off-Center Printing : Only allowed if hardly noticeable.
Cover Scuff Marks : Only allowed if hardly noticeable.


VERY FINE ( VF+ :80% , VF : 70% , VF- : 60%; Overstreet 89-75 )

An excellent copy with outstanding eye appeal. Sharp, bright and
clean with supple pages. Pages and covers can be yellowish/tannish
(at the most) but not brown and will usually be off-white to white.
Light spine wear is permissible. Most comics from the past ten years
or so that have been well taken care of will fall somewhere is this
category.

Tears : Only very minor tears allowed - 1/8 inch.
Corner Bends : Slightly noticeable bends allowed.
Spine Stress Marks : Slightly noticeable ones allowed.
Staples : Clean, no rust, centered, but may be a bit loose.
Writing : None allowed with the exception of autographs.
Rubber Stamps : None allowed.
Tape : None allowed.
Pieces Missing : None allowed with the exception of tips of pages
nicked during the production process.
Fingerprints : When noticeable they drop the comic down a grade.
Solid color cover books or ones with a highly
reflective cover have problems with this.
Water stains : None allowed.
Browning Paper : None allowed except in the instance of older
comics (such as a 12 cent comic) that may have
oxidized due to their extreme age. Even then,
it must be hardly noticeable.
Spine Rolling : None allowed.
Off-Center Printing : Very slight deviance is allowed.
Cover Scuff Marks : Only allowed if hardly noticeable.


FINE ( F or FN, F+ : 55% , F : 50% , F- 45%; Overstreet 74-55 )

An exceptional, above average copy that shows minor wear but still
relatively flat, clean and glossy with no subscription crease or brown
margins. Typical defects include: light spine wear, minor surface
wear, a light crease, minor yellowing/tanning to interior pages.
Compared to a VF, cover inks are beginning to show a significant
reduction in reflectivity but is till highly collectable and desirable.

Tears : Only very minor tears allowed - 1/4 inch.
Corner Bends : Minor noticeable bends allowed.
Spine Stress Marks : Minor noticeable ones allowed.
Staples : Clean, no rust, centered, but may be a bit loose.
Writing : Very neat, small penciled prices on the interior
page of a comic allowed. Otherwise, not allowed.
Rubber Stamps : Allowed only in the case of international price
stamps or small blue star which shows that it
was sold at a Stars & Stripes newsstand at a
military base.
Tape : None allowed.
Pieces Missing : Only if less than 1/8 inch square.
Fingerprints : Fingerprints are allowed, but excessive or ugly
fingerprints can drop the grade to Very Good.
Water stains : None allowed with the exception of stains on the
back cover due to high humidity. No wrinkling or
warping allowed.
Browning Paper : Very light browning is allowed, but no brittleness.
Spine Rolling : Allowed only if very minor.
Off-Center Printing : Slight deviance is allowed.
Cover Scuff Marks : Light scuffing is allowed, but is minor. This
shows up mostly on comics with dark covers.


VERY GOOD ( VG+ : 40% , VG : 35% , VG- 30%; Overstreet 54-35 )

The average used comic book, that has not been taken care of by proper
handling and bag & boarding, most commonly found. The comic shows
moderate wear but eye appeal has not been reduced to the point that it
is not desirable. One or two minor markings on the cover or minor
spine roll are allowed. Lightly creased along spine or extremities,
subscription crease, loose centerfold, or minor chip or piece missing
allowed.

Tears : Several minor tears or one major tear allowed.
Corner Bends : Allowed.
Spine Stress Marks : Always allowed and is very evident.
Staples : Clean, no rust, centered, but may be loose, but
still must be joined to all the pages. No
tearing allowed.
Writing : Very neat, small penciled prices on the interior
page or cover of a comic allowed. Otherwise, not
allowed.
Rubber Stamps : International price stamps and small blue star
stamps are allowed. Name and store stamps are
allowed only if on back cover and done neatly.
Crooked stamps drop it a grade.
Tape : None allowed.
Pieces Missing : Allowed if smaller than the size of a postage
stamp and the comic is not too worn. Otherwise
a worn comic with a piece that size missing would
be Good.
Fingerprints : Fingerprints are allowed, except in the case that
they are caused by an external agent such as oil
on someones fingers.
Water stains : Only a small, single drop, water stain allowed
and only then if hardly noticeable.
Browning Paper : Browning is allowed, but no brittleness.
Spine Rolling : Allowed only if very minor.
Folds : The cover may have some folds, but the comic must
not have been bent in half.
Off-Center Printing : Allowed.
Cover Scuff Marks : Allowed, but is minor.


GOOD ( G+ : 25% , G : 20% , G- : 15%; Overstreet 34-15 )

This comic has all pages and covers, although there may be small rips
or tears. Commonly creased, scuffed, abraded, and soiled, but books
in this grade are completely readable. Paper quality is low, but not
brittle.

Tears : Tears are allowed short of the cover being torn
in half.
Corner Bends : Evident.
Spine Stress Marks : Spine can have some tears, usually around the
staples. Tears must be less than 1/4 inch.
Staples : Loose staples with some rust allowed.
Writing : All writing allowed except in excessive cases
where large magic markers are used or if it
detracts from the story in some way.
Rubber Stamps : Allowed unless excessive.
Tape : Allowed unless excessive such as duct tape.
Pieces Missing : 2 inch square pieces on cover, 3 inch square on
back, and 1 inch square from interior corners
allowed. Clipped coupons from back cover allowed,
but not from interior. Note, this is not the same
as coupons used to redeem "free" comic books.
Fingerprints : Allowed.
Water stains : Allowed unless excessive.
Browning Paper : Browning is allowed, and slightly brittle.
Spine Rolling : Allowed.
Folds : Allowed.
Off-Center Printing : Allowed.
Cover Scuff Marks : Allowed.


FAIR ( FR : 10%; Overstreet 14- 5 )

Very heavily read and soiled, but still complete. Damaged beyond
collectability for most collectors, brings 30 to 50 percent of the
good price.

Tears : Tears are allowed short of the cover being torn
in half.
Corner Bends : Evident.
Spine Stress Marks : Spine can have tears, usually around the
staples. Tears must be less than 1 inch.
Staples : Loose staples with rust allowed.
Writing : All writing allowed except in excessive cases
where large magic markers are used or if it
detracts from the story in some way.
Rubber Stamps : Allowed unless excessive.
Tape : Allowed unless excessive such as duct tape.
Pieces Missing : Missing pieces allowed, but the story is still
readable. Clipped coupons allowed.
Fingerprints : Allowed.
Water stains : Allowed unless excessive.
Browning Paper : Browning and brittleness allowed.
Spine Rolling : Allowed.
Folds : Allowed.
Off-Center Printing : Allowed.
Cover Scuff Marks : Allowed.


POOR ( PR : 5%; Overstreet 4 - 1 )

Sufficiently degraded so as to have little or no collector value.
Often severely stained, abraded, defaced, or damaged beyond
readability.

Tears : Allowed short of the book being torn in half.
Corner Bends : Evident.
Spine Stress Marks : Spine has tears.
Staples : Loose staples with rust allowed.
Writing : All writing allowed.
Rubber Stamps : Allowed.
Tape : Allowed.
Pieces Missing : Allowed.
Fingerprints : Allowed.
Water stains : Allowed.
Browning Paper : Brown and brittle.
Spine Rolling : Allowed.
Folds : Allowed.
Off-Center Printing : Allowed.
Cover Scuff Marks : Allowed.

This is a very good general guide, but it is old---pre-CGC era. This is how I have graded comics myslef and when I list them on e-bay, but now so many of the price guides have gone the way of CGC grading for price listings, it can be difficult to figure out the conversion. I would be interested in seeing a CGC equivalent to this guide. e.g. M = 10.0, NM = 9.6, etc. (I just made those numbers up) Does anyone know how the grading for CGC actually works? What amounts to a decimal point decrease? What's the difference between a 9.8 and a 9.6??

There is always going to be some debate over graded books versus non-graded books. I like to present it this way:

When you buy diamonds for your wife or girlfriend do you look at the quality of the diamond? Will she look at the quality of diamond? Will you buy a diamond that has been graded by Leo (a prominent gem grader) or from Zales and their grading gemologist?

The reason I use diamonds is there is a major difference in diamonds. Not all diamonds are the same.
FL (Flawless) - IF (Internally Flawless)
Flawless Diamonds reveal no flaws on the surface or internally are the rarest and most beautiful gems.

Internally Flawless Diamonds reveal no inclusions and only insignificant blemishes on the surface under 10x magnification.

VVS1 - VVS2 (Very, Very Slightly Included)
Very difficult to see inclusions under 10x magnification. These are excellent quality diamonds.

VS1 - VS2 (Very Slightly Included)
Only looking through a 10X loupe can pinpoint the inclusions in this category and are nearly impossible to see with the naked eye. These are less expensive than the VVS1 or VVS2 grades.

SI1 - SI3 (Slightly Included)
Diamonds with inclusions easily identified under 10x magnification. Finding flaws in this category with the naked eye is difficult. The gems in this category maintain their integrity, depending on the location of the inclusions.

I1 - I3 (Included)
Diamonds with inclusions which may or may not be easily seen by the naked eye. The flaws on the stones in this category will have some effect on the brilliance of your diamond.

So, after reading this, what would your wife/girlfriend want on her finger?

What you are forgetting is that we are talking comics...way more important and expensive than that rock on my wife's finger!! (Love you,honey).

It does go that way with buyer's though and everyone will be different, but at least with diamonds everyone knows the scale. There is confusion in comics as to what exactly makes up the scale now that we have a 10 pt decimal system in place. I don't want to be advertising something as NM/VF if it is only VF--there is a major price discrepancy there and you could have some very dissatisfied customers.

I love my comics too! And yes I do have some that are more expensive than the rock on my wifes finger. I was just trying to look at comics from a different perspective. I know we all have comics that are beautiful, but wouldn't it be nice if you had an independent 3rd party grade your books so there would be no confusion as to what grade the comic is in? I know that I wouldn't be able to grade a comic meticulously and give it a proper grade. There was an example recently on the board where the user posted a pic of his book and someone said it would grade an 8.0. He sent it to CGC and they gave it a grade of 9.4. Big difference. So do we trust our own grading skills knowing we are biased since they are our books that we treasure or do we let a 3rd party that isn't biased grade them for us? Tough decision in my honest opinion.

Grading a comic is a task what most people don't do is remove themselves from the thought of making money on the book. They understand that if they put that nm on a ebay listing it will bring in more money even if the book is a vf or fine. I have seen listing of older books graded as nm and in the picture you see the crease at a corner what you you think that's about just being a little loose on the grade or knowing that the nm listing will have more people look at it and bring higher prices. Yes beauty is in the eye of the beholder but greed runs crazy in this hobby. Yes standerds have changed in the last 10 to 15 years but so has the hobby when a book will sale for a half of million or million standards have to be made. You have to put yourself in the buyers shoes if i payed this much for a book listed in this grade and received the book and thought is was overgraded how would i feel. And all the places that say i usaully undergrade are miss leading too that is just a way of saying i quickly graded a book here it is and it maybe better. For everyone serious about buyering or saling go get the overstreet grading guide you might just be surpised that there is a standard and most people just don't care to follow it in the attempt to relize more money for there collection.
P.s. on ebay you have to factor in shipping cost because for you to recieve that book that is the total amount that you had to pay.

Well said Big Monkey but it's not just Ebay sellers either. I have bought many books from respectable comic companies such as Mile High Comics and Newkadia that were posted in NM and came back as defitnite VF. It makes me so mad. It's just plain common courtesy to be honest, escepcialy to your customers.

Good topic as this has to be the most hotly debated topic for comic book collectors. I found the Overstreet Comic Book Grading Guide (2nd ed.) to be a useful asset to help my grading skills. I know some people dispute the accuracy of some of the picture examples they use (esp. in the 3rd edition) but it has helped me with quick eyeball grades when I am evaluating comics. I tend to overgrade my own comics less now.

Another useful tactic has been looking at some of the high-res scans of CGC-graded comics at auction houses like Heritage Auctions. Checking the grades versus the visible condition has helped me decide which of my more valuable books I will send out for professional grading.

YMMV of course.


BACARDI

Im not a fan of graded comics.
Because of it, its much harder to make a significant find.

I just bought my 1st graded comic off ebay. I got a Silver Surfer #2 in 6.5 from PGX.
Paid 35 bucks delievered to my door. Thats a good deal for that book. That it was graded made no difference to me. I had a ruff idea of what defects I was willing to accept and my price point for the book overall.

I have since cracked the case and gave the book a home next to 1, 3 and 4. Dont feel the least tinge of remorse about it.

I have never submitted anything to be professionally graded. In reality, I think the grade you get back has as much to do if the grader got laid the night before or had a nice lunch. I've seen some real grading headscratchers that make me SERIOUSLY question their consistency and overall accuracy. I've heard that bulk submittors (ie. repeat customers) tend to get more favorable grades..

I know my eyes and what I can live with as far as defects go...
I like it flat, glossy, and the spine tight as a drum. I can live with a subscription crease and off center printing. Depending on the book and how well the colors and art lend itself, small dog-ears on the corners I can get over too.
Bonus points if it "smells" like a comic.

BUT date stamps, writing and obvious misuse or lack of storage really get on my nerves.

Graded books have put top end books out of reach, as every Tom Dick and Harry that thinks they have something submits it to milk the $ out of it. Not that there is any sin to making a profit, but come on.... Whats the point of having a .5 graded copy of something? The difference between a 9.0 and 9.9 is going to be exponential, unfortunately. Finding decent copys just got harder. Decent copies at MY price rather.... and Im one cheap Mofugly.

A buddy of mine gave me A Marvel Werewolf #2.. 20 cent copy. It was a phat copy. For all intents and purposes.. It looked perfect. It me all of my criteria for visual appeal... My bud bought it off ebay... the guy he bought it from, had it submitted and cracked the case... the CGC label fell out from between the pages saying it was a 7.5 copy.. and he had a small sticky note on the board with comments and grading notes... Evidently, this cat had a book graded to be a yardstick to measure his other books. I have since seen CGC stuff in much worse condition, spine dings, dogears ect. get a higher grade... So I cant figure those Graded guys out..

Its a mystery...

I just know what Im willing to accept and pay for a given book. I dont need anybody elses eyes to tell me what I want to hear.

So what is the general rating for a book that is off-the-shelf at a normal comic book store (or even pulled off before shelving)? Does this rating go down if they are read once or twice? I hear conflicting things sometimes, on both issues...I ask because this is what pretty much all my books are, and I think we need to know this stuff for selling through CCL.

PS i mean rating as in NM, VF, etc. not CGC number ratings

I dunno man..
My shop gets in some damged stuff from time to time... Poor packing or printing or those stupid inserts mess things up.
I OFTEN, go thru my pull books and swap them out for better copies off the shelf.

So you still have to be careful...

Unless you fold your books back when you read them... or have KFC grease or PB&J on your fingers as you read... I think you can be careful euff so that its a non issue.

Maybe somebody is trying to sell you 2 copies? Examine their motivation for saying this..

I feel in some ways CGC has helped the comic book industry and In some ways hurt it really bad. I grade my books acurately, but the sales of back issues have declined by alot in my store, cuz the customer wants them graded now anyway and the figure if they buy a book say around $15 in VG, they will have to send it into CGC for another $15 plus and now they have a cost of $30 plus for a comic thats only worth $15. CGC is great for rare and high grade books, but I feel they have ruined the SALES of anything less than 9.6, My customers don't even want 9.4's anymore since they see all that money that 9.8's fetch. Its turned into a greed hobby instead of a read hobby

I have that exact same problem. I do agree that, in some aspects, CGC has assisted the market, but, it has truly hurt my back issue sales. It seems that with the greed that has hit our industry, gone are the days of collecting for fun...

I'm not interested in having them graded. I guess it helps to set some price points, but I don't buy comic books for resale. I buy them for me. And I collect current titles. But let's say that I have now seen a LOT of cool books on CCL and decide to get some back issues. Well, if I want a back issue, I'll take what I can get. If your copy has been read 10 times and has a small crease in it, but is $5, vs the guy who has one w/o a crease for $25. Guess what? I'm buying the cheaper one. Then I can get other books for that $$$ I saved.

hi just a quick question iv just starting to know about CGC grading comics and was wondering is there a address for people in england or do i have to send them to the USA? thanks

Speaking of grading, does anyone know the procedures involved in getting CGC to grade a book? I am a little trepidacious about sending any book I thought might be valuable away. What do they charge??? Thanks.