From the Change Request Guidelines:


So, I'm adding DC/WS DreamWar #6 to my collection and I see that the story arc field is filled in with DC/WildStorm DreamWar. Since this was a self-contained mini-series and since the guidelines specifically note that "story arcs should not be cover titles" I was going to submit a removal request.

Before I did that, I checked to make sure the title wasn't being used elsewhere. Couldn't imagine why it would be, but I wanted to make sure. To my surprise, that story arc is attached to All-Star Batman & Robin #9A & 9B, Crime Bible #5 and Uncle Sam & the Freedom Fighters (Vol 2) #6. Color me confused. Until I realized that each of these had a note in the item bio that they "Also includes a preview of DC/WS DreamWar."

I don't own any of these issues, so I don't know with 100% certainty that these aren't some kind of prelude or teaser pages that actually lead into DC/WS DreamWar #1, but I'm guessing they are just 2-6 pages of DC/WS DreamWar #1 reprinted - similar to the Air and Madame Xanadu previews in Vertigo books or the Moon Knight preview in Marvel books.

If these are just pages from #1, then I think it's incredibly misleading to attach the story arc to a simple preview. The preview is not part of the ongoing story. It's not anything a collector would be looking for and, I believe, would feel cheated into buying something because of misleading labeling. And I also think it sets a bad precedent for the hundreds of other comics that have previews of other series in them.

I think everything with DC/WildStorm DreamWar needs to have the story arc pulled from it. The mini-series is self-contained. The previews should in no way be attached to any story arc ever.

Thoughts?

Total agreement here, Swiftus.....

Ditto - I've been seeing a lot of miniseries with arcs like this (Armageddon: Inferno was a recent example). They should only be arcs if there are tie in books to link to them, like with Secret Invasion or Infinity Gauntlet. Or did I miss a discussion where CCL ruled the other way?

Just for verification, in order for something to be considered a story arc the story has to span more than 1 issue correct? Or has CCL at some point tweaked their definition?

My understanding is that it needs to be more than one issue, as one issue is just a story title.

My understanding is that story arc needs to span two or more issues in the same book or in different books. It should not simply be the cover title repeated, unless it's an event like Civil War or Secret Invasion (as sgriffin mentioned), which have a mini-series but also several tie-in mini-series and regular series issues. Books like Final Crisis: Revelations (which I just saw a CR for) should not have "Final Crisis: Revelations" as a story arc (although it does), but should have "Final Crisis."

I agree with what you are saying SwiftMann.

But again, when it's printed on the Credits Page as a Story Arc and Title it should be included. You're always saying go with what's in the book, go with what's in the book. So I did and that's what some of the Final Crisis books have the actual Final Crisis in the Arc because it's there in the Title. As well, they should all be listed under Final Crisis as well just like we've done with Infinite Crisis books and Countdown books and 52.

As for the previews, they're more than just 1 page and have full writing, inking, coloring and lettering and when you checked out the other Titles you read in the Bio that a preview of Dreamwar was also included so there you go. The same way the first appearance of Preacher is considered to be Absolute Vertigo (a preview book) that sells for double digits and not Preacher #1, previews should be noted and included. And with the new House of Mystery Series, the previews for it actually had new dialog included that isn't in the regular series with a host of classic Vertigo characters giving their takes on the new series in a self-referential way and that is important to me because Swamp Thing was one of the characters and I am a Swamp Thing completest from his first appearance in House of Secrets #92 to his 1 panel appearance in Super Friends #28, to his appearances in Ambush Bug, to his appearances in these previews in various Vertigo Titles.

Again, the more information the better, especially when someone besides yourself may want that information being that they're a completest.

CCL has already noted that it shouldn't. Restating the cover title on the credits page doesn't make it anything more than the title represented. CCL has made their point very clearly.


No one said anything about not including the fact that a preview is included in a comic. That information should be included. (Personally, I think only minimally unless it's something big like Preacher's first appearance, which is a 1 in a 1,000,000 preview.) However, we were talking about not including story arcs as they simply aren't part of the story arc. They are just a piece of the whole found elsewhere.

They have not. CCL has been Approving mini Cover Titles as Story Arcs and when it's listed right there on the credits page it should be included. Again, I'm not stopping what I've been doing for a year and a half because you don't like it and we all know the Guidelines are WAY out of date. Hell we're on 2.0 and there's no mention of it. The recent Changes have only been to the Action Figure Section. Obviously things need to be amended.

Not the right approach. Bring it before CCL for the FINAL ruling. It may take us some time to come up with a solution but we'll get there.

The guidelines are always in flux. I wouldn't call them outdated. We still have to use them as a framework to make almost every determination.

We'll take a look at the guidelines next week and make sure things that need clarification are ... clarified. Also - I'll add info on the NN Field, etc.

Also, just a head's up - if you haven't already, please see the guidelines in regards to the change a couple of days ago about Dynamite Issues and their dates.

Thx,

Morgan

Bump - there's a debate going on in CR2 around this point and we need a ruling from CCL.

Batman007 says mini's should be arcs in and of themselves. SwiftMann and the current guidelines disagree. I also disagree - the guidelines state "Story arcs should not be cover titles, unless the cover title has been used before in a story arc running in a series of comics." I think this is a reasonable guideline and don't see cause to change it. However, I'll defer to CCL's ruling.

Well for a year now CCL has been Approving Arcs Submissions that reflect the Cover Title. It seems obvious to me when (using the current pending Submissions) Number of the Beast has "Number of the Beast, Verse Five: This is How the World Ends" on the Title page. As well this is the third part of a WildStorm event, the sequel to Revelations which is the sequel to Armageddon, both of which have Arcs in the Database..

It totally makes sense to me and just allows for more ways to find this Title/Arc in the Database,, I can't see how that's going to hinder anything and don;t understand why it's even an issue at this point. Like I said, CCL has been Approving tons of minis as Arcs for over a year now. The Guidelines are way out of date even without taking CR 2.0 into consideration.

The title page is restating the title of the series and the issue number (in this case "Verse") and the actual story title. There's simply no reason to have the redundant story arc info in there because 1) it's not a story arc, just the name of the comic and 2) all issues are contained within the title of the same name.

The fact that its the third chapter in the Armageddon/Revelation/Number of the Beast trilogy has no impact on the story arc. There isn't an overall name for the three books, which, if there was, would be a story arc as it crosses title names.

It's unnecessary clutter and while it is possible someone, somewhere may one day use the story arc feature to find it, it's highly unlikely since anyone looking for it knows it's the title of the actual book.

And CCL has commented on this in the past and the guidelines are valid and up to date on this aspect of the entries (you don't get to pick and choose from the guidelines as it suites you) and just because they have been accepted in the past doesn't automatically mean they should have been or that it was the appropriate decision or that the approvers had all the information they needed. As an example, they recently removed all the story arc listings from "Tangent Superman's Reign" when I requested it. That one and others like "Black Adam: The Dark Age" and "Avengers/Invaders" are such clear examples, to me, of why mini-series titles shouldn't be story arcs.

I think the guidelines on this are reasonable and agree no need to change them at least not now anyway.

As far as the guidelines go the things there are basically fine, only thing is some of the policies that CCL has like on vol. numbers and other small things known only to those who have been here from the start, other than that things are fine. Main things is just to get those things in the open for all to know, not just those that were involved in the initial dispute over them. I mean if you don't know you don't know no matter how long you been here or been doing change request.

I think we should go by the guidelines. I also think the guidelines are outdated and in serious need of an overhaul. Perhaps one or two of you guys that really know what the guidelines should be could rewrite them and then all the approvers (including Steve & Morgan) could review, debate, and decide on the correct current guidelines.

I'd say the best thing if they are going to be revised is to have CCL Main staff Joe,Mr.Miracle,Steve and Morgan decide what is done and how to do it. They've put more of their heart into this than any of us.

He didn't say have the new approvers make new guidelines, like a complete revision, just have them go through and update what is outdated. Not making decisions, just affirming what CCL's decided.

That's a good idea, Pat.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Most of the actual guidelines have been agreed to here in the forums but not incorperated into the writen guidelines. There are others that are still debated either because they need changed or because we aren't aware of what was decided at some earlier time. Those are the ones that need debating, and I think we can do that in a civil manner.