I'd like to get some clarification on adding characters to an issue.

Do you include a character if they appear in a flashback that's just one panel? Do you include a character if they are heard but not seen? What about a character that is impersonated by a robot?

You could have a character narrate a whole issue, but not appear in it. That character should be added even they are just heard. I think it depends on on how much a character is seen or heard. A one panel flashback, I would say no. Impersonated by a robot?I don't know. Good question.

I'd agree that a character who appears in one panel, or as part of a background, should not be included. As a rule of thumb, I look to see if a character has any interaction in the issue, which would include being heard but not seen. Even then, it should be more than a single panel. As for the robot impersonation, that is a tough call. I'd go with the which ever persona is being impersonated. So, like in Civil War, Thor would be included, but not Donald Blake.

But what if that one panel is the last panel of the book and the character is making their first appearance? Look at a lot of the Marvel books in the 90s and you have the 1st Appearance as a Cameo type thing - Cable, Venom, Bishop...

I would disagree and say yes to include them even if the character appears in just one panel or in the background. I for one am a completest and would want to know these things. Wolverine, for example, actually made his first appearance in Hulk #180 but it was just in the last panel. Hulk #181 is techinically his first full appearance. Again, Joe's reigning philosophy, and one that I think should be the basis of any Database, the more complete the information, the better.

I have my own reservations on this topic. I too am somewhat of a completest, HOWEVER, I think it would be nice if the database had some way to separate a simple, single panel character "appearance" from active participation in the storyline. Maybe "Primary" vs. "Supporting" characters. I know this approach has its own problems (categorizing characters), but I think the current system of listing them all leaves something to be desired. I would hate to see someone buy a book based upon a search by character listing that shows his/her presence only to discover that that character only appears in a single panel. The way characters appear now gives equal weight to all, you can't tell anything from the simple listing other than they are in the book. Also, important characters can "get lost in the crowd" in some issues...

With a lot of index books that I own, if a character is just shown in a one panel flashback, they are listed as a cameo appearance. If the appearance is a little lengthier, but not a part of the main storyline, they are listed as a guest appearance. But when you have a whole community of people submitting change requests, it could be confusing to some as to who should go under what category. It could just create more problems.

Yeah we all know about this. For the most part, what comicnutz said was how it's been done in Price Guides and such. Cameo is the proper term for a one or two panel appearance, but anything more is an appearance.

For me, if a character is in a book then he/she/it is in the book, plain and simple.

I agree with this view also, but as of now, there is no way to put "cameo" in CCL character lists, so if they are in the book...they get listed.

Alright, so this is what I'm going to start doing from now on:

Anyone makes an appearance, even if it's one panel, in the background, does not speak, will be added. If they are speaking but not seen, whether it is off panel, speaking from a phone or radio transmission, I will add them. But if they are impersonated by some generic robot, I will not add them.

I do the same thing except for if they're just speaking over a radio or a phone. But if you actually see the character, even just their arm or their cape, then I Add them.

I agree. An appearance is an appearance. Since we don't have the ability to mark it as a cameo, everybody goes in the database no matter how small the part they played in the story.

Agreed ~

Also in regards to the database having "some way to separate a simple, single panel character "appearance" from active participation in the storyline. Maybe "Primary" vs. "Supporting" characters. I know this approach has its own problems (categorizing characters), but I think the current system of listing them all leaves something to be desired. I would hate to see someone buy a book based upon a search by character listing that shows his/her presence only to discover that that character only appears in a single panel. The way characters appear now gives equal weight to all, you can't tell anything from the simple listing other than they are in the book. Also, important characters can "get lost in the crowd" in some issues..."

CCL is constantly undergoing upgrades. I will mention this at the next meeting and see if something can't be implemented in the future.

Thanks again, for your concerns and we'll keep you updated on any changes. :)

I think some way to indicate a cameo appearance would be good. To me, anything more than one panel is an appearance, but one panel or less (half a side view or something) should be marked as a cameo.

But are you saying to include the character only if they are represented visually? Because like Spider-Man had mentioned, a character could narrate the issue and not be seen but they should be included. An example that comes to mind would be Earth X where the Watcher and X-51 are narrating throughout the series and in most every issue they are not seen.

Also, the reason I started this whole thread was because someone added the character of Professor to an issue of X-Force and X-Men. I voted no because I went through these issues that I owned and saw no one by that name. But I didn't actually go back and read the issues until the submitter pointed out that the character was the living ship used by Apocolypse and later Cable had gotten and started calling it Professor. In the issue, you don't see the ship, Cable is talking to it through a comm link. Equally, characters were being included in the X-Force issue and they were simply a hologram projected by the ship and seen in only one panel.

I think Add a Character ONLY if a visual representation is present. Radios, phones, com-links, etc. don't do it for me. Computer screens and tv's do.

But surely a character narrating an entire issue without actually appearing on-panel should count right? A good example would be a number of Starman issues narrated by the Shade.

So what if a character appears on the cover, but not in the actual issue. Case in point: The cover of Joker #1 features several villians that do not actually appear in the issue (i.e. Catwoman, Riddler, Penguin) as well as a torn poster of Batman (he does not appear in the issue either). What say the group?

I still wouldn't put it, how do you even know if their in costume? I would be bummed if I got an issue that was "narrated" by a character but didn't have them appear if I collect Appearances. Just mention in the Issue Desc that the story is told from Jack Knight's perspective. They do want the Issue Desc's to be creative.




I asked this very same question ages ago and was told No. Characters only get listed if they appear in the book.

The Shade doesn't even wear a costume! Not in Starman at least. For that matter, Jack Knight rarely wears a costume either. Oh sure, they'll dress with a certain "look", the Shade usually in a nice suit an hat, Knight in a vintage t-shirt, sometimes with goggles and a jacket, but it's not your traditional super costume ala Batman or Captain America. Anyway, I'd think a collector of Shade appearances would be interested in a book narrated by the Shade. BTW - I've been looking through my Starman books and haven't yet found the example I thought was there - so far, every issue the Shade has narrated he appears in at least one panel, so this point may be moot!

Here's another interesting point raised by the lack of costumes - when do you decide that a character who has assumed the mantle of a super-hero, and yet chooses never/rarely to wear a costume is appearing as that hero? So far, in Starman, I've chosen to list Starman as a character only if I see:
1 - Panels of Ted/David Knight, Mikall Thomas or Will Payton in Starman costumes
2 - Jack Knight wielding the rod/belt (without a costume that's just about all that defines him as Starman)

Now, nearly every issue that doesn't meet 2 meets 1, so I haven't needed to make a choice. But a few didn't meet any of them. For instance, Starman 15 has two pages of Jack and Ted walking and talking, with the rest of the issue focusing on Mikall and Solomon Grundy. So I didn't list Starman on that issue. Starman 14 also has a few panels with Jack just talking, then Ted fights Dr. Phosphorous hand to hand. So no Starman there.

But what about Jack fighting hand to hand with a villian? We might say Bruce Wayne fighting hand to hand doesn't count as Batman because he's out of costume. But Jack doesn't wear a costume to begin with! Issue 16 features a battle royale between Jack, the Mist, and her cronies. He doesn't touch the rod in the entire fight (it was taken from him in a previous issue). The only time we see him holding the rod is on the last page in a pin-up shot. That shot meets criteria 2, so I have no trouble listing Starman as a character but suppose it wasn't there? My inclination would still be to list him but I suspect others would feel differently?

I'm sure there are other characters that would probably fall in this gray area. Luke Cage/Powerman, Wesley Dodds/Sandman and Wolverine (maybe) come to mind. If Wolverine, out of costume, fights a villian but doesn't use his claws - is he Wolverine or is he just Logan?